Announcer:
Coming up on this episode of The Doctor’s Farmacy.
Stephanie Seneff:
It’s out there, you can’t avoid it, unfortunately. And we’re all getting sick as a consequence of it. I think it’s the major driver behind the rise in the huge list of diseases in this country: diabetes, obesity, autism, Alzheimer’s, various cancers. It’s quite shocking. These things are all rising dramatically, in prevalence, over time, exactly in step with the rise of glyphosate usage on core.
Stephanie Seneff:
Crops.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Hey everybody, it’s
Dr. Mark Hyman:. Welcome to The Doctor’s Farmacy, that’s pharmacy with an F, F-A-R-M-A-C-Y, a place for conversations that matter. And if you care about your health and the environment, if you care to learn about glyphosate, otherwise, known as Roundup or the weed killer that’s causing havoc to our health, planetary health, our microbiome, the microbiome of the soil, and many, many other issues. Then you should listen up carefully because we have an extraordinary guest today. Stephanie Seneff who is a senior research scientist at MIT, Massachusetts Institute of Technology. She’s at the Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Lab. She has a bachelor’s degree from MIT in biology, with a minor in food and nutrition science, a master’s degree, and engineering degree, and a PhD degree, all from MIT. You stayed true to MIT and also a degree in electrical engineering and computer science, so this is one smart lady.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
And her, really, focus these last years has been on the role of toxic chemicals and micronutrient deficiencies in health and disease. And I have followed her work. I’m a big fan of hers. She really focuses now on this herbicide, glyphosate, otherwise known as Roundup. It’s a weed killer, and it is the most prevalent agrochemical used. It’s on 70% of all crops. And she also is looking on how these affect different minerals and sulfur and other things. She’s authored over three dozen peer reviewed papers on these topics. She’s authored an incredible new book, which we all have to get, called Toxic Legacy: How the Weed Killer Glyphosate is Destroying our Health and the Environment, and it’s out, so make sure you pick up a copy.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
This is a game changing book, and some people have compared this book to Silent Spring by Rachel Carson, to really reveal the underbelly of what these chemicals are doing to human and planetary health. And the more I learned about it, the more scared I get about it. And I don’t think we’re out of the woods, even if it’s banned, because there’s other chemicals that are being now developed by major agrochemical companies to replace it as kind of better than, but often that isn’t really the case. So welcome Stephanie to The Doctor’s Farmacy podcast.
Stephanie Seneff:
Thank you for that wonderful introduction.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Now, let’s get right into it. Glyphosate is the active ingredient Roundup. It’s the most commonly used weed killer in the world. There’s about 300 million pounds of this herbicide sprayed on farms and food every year. Is that just the United States or that is globally? I think it’s probably more globally and-
Stephanie Seneff:
It’s, yeah, nine billion globally, I think is the total amount.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Nine billion.
Stephanie Seneff:
Total. Kilograms, kilograms, sorry, I always have to watch the units, nine-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Nine billion.
Stephanie Seneff:
… billion kilograms.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
That’s an incredible amount. I don’t even know what nine billion kilograms looks like, but it’s-
Stephanie Seneff:
It’s mind-bogglingly big.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Mind-boggling. It’s on 70% of all crops and it’s been around for a while, but not that long. In the ’70s, it started being used, and was actually used to sort of clean pipes. That was supposed to clean old leaded pipes and stuff, and all the gunk out of water pipes, but it turned out, as a came out on the other end, it started killing all the weeds. And they’re like, “Oh, this a weed killer.” So talk about the history of glyphosate, why farmers use so much of it, and why it’s so toxic and bad for us.
Stephanie Seneff:
It was, you’re right, 1961, it was patented as a pipe cleaner, and it wasn’t Monsanto, but Monsanto figured out it could kill weeds and they patented it in 1969, for that specific role. And then ’74 was when it got rolled out in America, we started being able to buy it. And they didn’t use that much up until the late 1990s, which was when they figured out how to engineer crops to resist it. That was a huge breakthrough in agriculture. And that caused a huge increase in the use of glyphosate, exponential growth over time in those next decades. Since then, really, it’s just been growing phenomenally, because it’s been successful. Just spray the weed killer all over the crop, the crop doesn’t die, the weeds die.
Stephanie Seneff:
It’s very convenient for agriculture and it’s made our food cheap. United States uses 20% of the world’s supply and we’re only four percent of the world population. So you can see that we get a lot more exposure than people elsewhere in the world. We have the most per person of any country in the world. And it’s=
Dr. Mark Hyman::
That’s terrifying. Yeah. I’ve actually checked my urine glyphosate levels, and I’m like, I’m pretty much focused on eating organic food. I don’t try to eat any GMO foods. I mean, I’m not perfect, because if I go out to a restaurant, I don’t know what I’m getting. And I was shocked and I was in the 50th percentile for glyphosate in my body.
Stephanie Seneff:
It’s really disturbing, isn’t it. I had a similar experience. I was shocked that I had any at all, and I tested, I was positive. So-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Wow.
Stephanie Seneff:
… it’s… And I eat organic. I eat certified organic for many years, so it’s just out there. You can’t avoid it, unfortunately, and we’re all getting sick as a consequence of it. I think it’s the major driver behind the rise in the huge list of diseases in this country: diabetes, obesity, autism, Alzheimer’s, various cancers. It’s quite shocking. These things are all rising dramatically, in prevalence, over time, exactly in step with the rise in glyphosate usage on core crops.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Yeah. Well, it’s interesting, when, Rachel Carson wrote Silent Spring, she talked a lot about the birth defects, and also, the developmental effects of these chemicals, which got people to really think about them. But the glyphosate is a little different. It doesn’t seem to cause a developmental effects, but it caused all these other issues like cancer and destroys our microbiome. Can you talk about what it actually does to the human body, but the soil? Because I think, it’s very similar in its adverse effects around harming the microbiome of the soil and harming our microbiome, which turns out to be a very important part of our biology. And may link all those diseases you mentioned.
Stephanie Seneff:
That is so true. And that’s what I’ve realized, and of course others have too, because the number of papers on the microbiome is going up very rapidly in the last 10, 20 years. People are finding how important those microbes are, because they’re not working correctly. People are getting so many diseases that trace back to the microbiome disruption. And glyphosate, unfortunately, preferentially kills the beneficial bacteria. That’s crucial.
Stephanie Seneff:
It kills off lactobacillus and bifidobacteria, which are really important in the baby, to really get started with drinking the milk. Lactobacillus is very important, because it has a lot of enzymes that specialize in breaking down casein and milk, the milk protein. And so, when those enzymes are missing, the baby can’t digest milk, and that has lots and lots of consequences. We get things like casein intolerance, gluten intolerance. I think it’s due to this lactobacillus being disturbed by glyphosate, and disrupting their ability to help us digest these foods that we’re eating.
Stephanie Seneff:
And then, of course, these pathogens take hold because the beneficial bacteria are weak and depleted. And then the pathogens induce a leaky gut, inflammatory gut, the immune cells come in, and things go south from there. So people just have a lot of problems with their gut. I have a whole chapter on the gut in my book, and that was a really hard chapter to write. I had to read a lot of material to coalesce into a story, but I finally got what I was happy with as a story for all the different things that glyphosate does, much more than what I’ve just said now, of course.
Stephanie Seneff:
Related, in part, to the inability to break down proteins. And that becomes very serious, because it can end up with autoimmune disease. When those proteins that you eat are not broken down in your gut and then that induces a leaky gut, and then that also allows those proteins to get out into the general circulation, which then causes antibodies to those proteins. And then through a process called molecular mimicry, they become auto antibodies and attack your tissues, so you get autoimmune disease.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Yeah. What you just unpacked there was so important, I just want to underscore it, because when you are exposed to glyphosate, it seems to directly impact the microbiome by killing off your inner garden, in ways that prevent it from actually protecting you the way it’s supposed to from disease. And the glyphosate seems to be responsible for increasing this widespread phenomenon of leaky gut, which means that the barrier in the gut is broken somehow and the proteins and the toxins from the bacteria and also food proteins leak, literally, leak into your bloodstream, interact with your immune system and create a systemic response of inflammation. And all the diseases-
Stephanie Seneff:
That’s right.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
… that you mentioned, cancer, liver disease, autism, heart disease, diabetes. I mean, these are all inflammatory diseases. So take us down that road a little bit more in-depth about how glyphosate, despite it being claimed as safe by the food companies for humans, animals and the environment, why it’s not safe? And how specifically the evidence is mounting around how it’s connected to these various diseases? And we see that, even in courts, and while this may not be played out in regulatory changes, it’s being played out in the courts. Where 14,000 lawsuits have been filed against glyphosate, and there’s been billions in settlements against the Monsanto, Bayer now, which actually owns Monsanto.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
So can you talk more about the science of how much do we know? How well is this proven? Is this just hearsay? Or is there a good data linking glyphosate with doing these problems?
Stephanie Seneff:
Yeah. So when you start with a gut microbes, and, of course, glyphosate is a metal peeler, that was the first way that it was patented. And when it binds to minerals, it makes them unavailable to the gut microbes, so that’s part of the impact of how it disrupts them. It hits on a particular enzyme called EPSP synthase in the shikimate pathway. And that’s a very, very important biological pathway in plants, and it’s also very common in the microbes in our gut. Something like, a study showed 54% of the microbes would be affected by this specific problem of the shikimate pathway getting disrupted. That pathway produces the aromatic amino acids, and those are three of the coding amino acids that go into the proteins. And we, we depend upon getting them from our food or from our microbe production of them, because our cells don’t have that shikimate pathway. They can’t make those proteins, so they can become deficient.
Stephanie Seneff:
And those proteins, those amino acids are really critical. The aromatics, this tryptophan, tyrosine, and phenylalanine, they’re super critical for our health. For example, tryptophan is a precursor to serotonin and melatonin, and those are neurotransmitters that are extremely important for proper brain function. Sleep disorder is going up dramatically in step with the rise in glyphosate, probably, in part, because of disruption of melatonin supply. And serotonin is the mood hormone, it’s related to depression, violent behavior, it’s deficiency. And they come out of that shikimate pathway. Also, thyroid hormone, it comes out of the shikimate pathway as well, a different amino acid, tyrosine rather than tryptophan. And so thyroid hormone is going to be disrupted, and many studies have shown that glyphosate disrupts thyroid homeostasis.
Stephanie Seneff:
So the hormones are getting disrupted, the amino acids are being depleted. Also, those enzymes go to B vitamins and niacin and riboflavin. Niacin and riboflavin are precursors to molecules called NAD and FAD, which are very, very important for metabolism, and their deficiency is going to disrupt the mitochondria. And I think mitochondrial dysfunction-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
That means you can’t make energy.
Stephanie Seneff:
Right, you can’t make energy. Mitochondrial dysfunction is central to so many diseases, and I think it’s also central to glyphosate’s effects on the body. If I had to say one thing, I would say, mitochondrial dysfunction as a key feature of what glyphosate does. And many papers have shown that it causes oxidative stress, it causes depletion of glutathione, it causes glutathione to be oxidized, which is important because glutathione is a really important antioxidant, only if it’s reduced.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Wow, that’s just a lot you unpack there. Let me see if I got this right. If you’re exposed to glyphosate, it harmfully affects the bacteria in your gut that produce really important amino acids that regulate your gene expression. And the pathway it disrupts as a shikimate pathway, and that leads to abnormal gene expression and not being able to actually do the things your body’s supposed to do. And it also seems-
Stephanie Seneff:
Yeah, it’s-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
… to deplete glutathione, which you mentioned, which is a critical molecule for regulating inflammation, detoxifying, antioxidant, it’s really the center of our biology. And if it disrupts that we’re kind of screwed.
Stephanie Seneff:
Right, glutathione is so important. And we’re seeing so many people talking about taking glutathione as a supplement, taking N-acetylcysteine, too, as a precursor to glutathione. Methionine is the core essential sulfur containing amino acid, and it is a precursor to cysteine, which goes to glutathione. Methionine synthesis is disrupted in E. coli by glyphosate. There was a study that showed that. So it prevents the microbes and also prevents the plants from producing methionine from inorganic sulfur. So this gives you, again, a deficiency in the sulfur containing amino acid.
Stephanie Seneff:
So we have a deficiency, both in the aromatics and sulfur containing amino acids, and they’re so important for so many things. It’s just uncountable practically the ways that that would impact, particularly, your metabolism. And of course, also protein synthesis, and of course, all the hormones that are affected and the B vitamins, all of those things are going to be affected by these disruptions by glyphosate.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
And I mean, you’re a MIT scientist. This is not some crazy fringe idea.
Stephanie Seneff:
No.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
You’re an evidence-based scientist. It’s looking-
Stephanie Seneff:
Exactly.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
… hard at the data, and coming to these conclusions. Well, before we get into why the government hasn’t figured this out yet, let’s talk about other diseases and how good the evidence is. How good is the evidence around cancer, for example, or diabetes or autism or any of these autoimmune issues that you’re talking about?
Stephanie Seneff:
Yeah. Cancer is actually the hardest one to explain, and maybe the weakest one, in fact, I would say. Cancer, of course, evolves out of mitochondrial dysfunction, so eventually it causes it. Studies have shown that it enhances other chemical’s effects that would lead to cancer. In other words, secondary effect, there are studies that have shown that. And there are also studies that have shown that it causes cancer cells, breast cancer cells in vitro to proliferate when they’re exposed to extremely tiny levels in parts per trillion, parts per trillion levels of glyphosate, induce proliferation and cancer cells.
Stephanie Seneff:
I think it does cause several different cancers, but it’s a much more difficult thing to explain than some of the other diseases. Liver disease is quite easy to explain, if you accept my theory, which we maybe should get into at this point, because that’s crucial. My theory for its extremely unusual mechanism of toxicity.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Just to back up for people, a liver is you’re detoxifying organ, and you hinted at how glyphosate interrupts sulfur metabolism, which is a critical part of our biology. And in functional medicine, there’s a real focus on our sulfur biology, because it’s critical for detoxifying all the environmental compounds we’re exposed to, for metabolizing our own internal toxins. And people who have low glutathione, which is the sulfur based compounds are sicker.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
I remember reading one study that if you looked at people who are hospitalized versus not hospitalized, if you have this general lower levels of glutathione, based on a gene that is important regulating it, 50% of the time you’re going to be more likely to end up in the hospital. So it’s kind of a marker for overall health and wellbeing. And I personally have a lot of experience with glutathione, because I had mercury poisoning and it gets very depleted. And I had to learn how to restore my sulfur metabolism and also something-
Stephanie Seneff:
Absolutely.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
… called methylation, which is the B vitamins, because they’re very interlock. And when you think of your biochemistry, for those listening, it’s like this big network of biochemical reactions. But right at the center of it is these two core systems that run all the time, literally, every second, millions and millions of times a second, billions of times, probably, called methylation/sulfation. And these pathways-
Stephanie Seneff:
Exactly.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
I’ve written a lot about them in various books and articles, but this is the key to health. It’s the key to gene expression to immune function to detoxification and to cognitive function. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. So when this is screwed up, it’s not just like some minor pathway that gets disrupted in human biology. It’s a major pathway. So with that background, can you explain how glyphosate disrupts sulfur metabolism a little more clearly? And explain, what really the role of this sulfur is in maintaining health? And why we should be terrified about glyphosate and sulfate?
Stephanie Seneff:
I think glyphosate disrupts sulfate synthesis, sulfate activation, sulfate transport, and sulfate delivery. It disrupts every step of the way for sulfate. And as you mentioned, mercury, actually get sulfated to detox it. If you can’t sulfate the mercury, you’re in trouble. I think that we have a systemic deficiency in sulfate in the glycocalyx, which is in the lining of all the cells, like in the blood vessels. There’s all this sulfate that populates these sugar molecules, complex sugar molecules in the lining of the blood vessels. Those need to be heavily sulfated to have the blood circulation work correctly, and also for the cells to be able to receive signals and to bring in different things they’re going to take in to digest it. It’s just really central, having enough sulfate around the exterior of the cell. It also gives the red blood cells negative charge, which is important for the zeta potential in the blood.
Stephanie Seneff:
They’re just all these things that are connected to sulfate. And I talk a lot about sulfate in my book. It’s actually been central to my understanding of where biology has gone wrong. And I felt sulfate was in trouble with autism and with heart disease many years ago, long before I knew about glyphosate. So the sulfate and the glyphosate really came together very nicely for me. For me to recognize how glyphosate is causing autism and, probably, heart disease through sulfate issues.
Stephanie Seneff:
And as you mentioned, the sulfation, sulfation is very important for detoxing many of these fat-soluble chemicals that go to the liver, it’s the livers job to detox them. And it takes them up, it adds sulfate, oxidizes them, it adds sulfate. The enzymes that the CYP enzymes that do that first step of detox are also suppressed by glyphosate, that’s been shown in multiple studies. It suppresses the enzymes in the liver that modify these fat soluble molecules to detox them and to make them water soluble, so they can be removed through the urine. The oxidation [crosstalk 00:19:42]-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So what you’re saying basically is, when toxins come in the liver, they have to be detoxified by the liver-
Stephanie Seneff:
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
… and there are enzymes that do that, that are like the helpers. What you’re saying-
Stephanie Seneff:
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
… is that glyphosate screws up those enzymes-
Stephanie Seneff:
That’s right.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
… so those chemicals can’t get processed down the assembly line of detoxification.
Stephanie Seneff:
Yes. And of course, then those chemicals become much more toxic. So glyphosate makes many, many other chemicals much more toxic than they would otherwise be, because it disrupts the liver’s ability to detoxify them. And of course, glutathione is part of that problem, because a lot of things glutathionylated to get removed as well. There’s methylation, glutathionylation, sulfation. These are all steps that are taken in the liver to change these molecules into something that’s less toxic. And that process gets broken down by glyphosate.
Stephanie Seneff:
So it’s really quite remarkable all the things that it can do to disrupt your health. The whole sulfate story it has… In part, it’s because these shikimate pathway, because the shikimate pathway produces those aromatics. For example, serotonin gets produced in large amounts in the gut, actually, and also melatonin. They both have produced in large amounts in the gut. They are sulfated before they’re shipped out and then they arrive in the brain in a sulfated form. I think the serotonin is actually transporting sulfate to the brain.
Stephanie Seneff:
This is something I talk a lot about. There’s all these molecules that get sulfated in transit, not just the toxic chemicals, vitamin D, cholesterol and various sex hormones, they’re all sulfated when they’re shipped out. And then all these aromatics that come out of the shikimate pathway. So those molecules become deficient, which means that the sulfate transporters become deficient, which means that the brain doesn’t get enough sulfate. And autism is very strongly linked to a heparan sulfate deficiency in the brain ventricles. That’s really been a core feature of autism, that’s been shown in both mice and humans. And I think it’s just because there’s not enough sulfate being delivered to the brain.
Stephanie Seneff:
And the body does something very interesting to get around that, which is quite fascinating, and also quite disturbing, which is that it produces hydrogen sulfide gas in the gut. That the autistic children produce hydrogen sulfide gas, which then floats up to the brain and then gets oxidized in the brain to make sulfate. So it’s a way to transport sulfate. And very sneaky way to transport sulfate by turning it into a gas, turning the sulfur molecule into a gas, hydrogen sulfide.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
So it also makes the kids poops really smelly and stinky.
Stephanie Seneff:
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
And sticky.
Stephanie Seneff:
And it also gives them brain fog, because hibernation is all involved with hydrogen sulfide gas. And basically, people go into hibernation because they’ve got hydrogen sulfide floating in their brain. And then, of course, you have to have oxidizing agents to oxidize it to sulfate, which gives you the inflammation. It’s the inflammatory process in the brain that’s characteristic of autism. This kind of chronic, low grade encephalopathy, that’s a feature of autism, is because the autistic brain is constantly trying to make sulfate from hydrogen sulfide gas. Either-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Wow. This is just so much information. I’m just loving this. I think just unpack it a little bit for people, when you eat foods with glyphosate, which is 70% of all crops, and often it’s used on GMO foods like soy, but even non-GMO foods, it’s used on like wheat. It’s a whole host of different ways in the body that it screws things up. So what you’re saying, it screws up this pathway that makes the neurotransmitters that help regulate gene expression important for cognitive function. It disrupts glutathione, which is critical for detoxification, it’s regulates immunity and oxidative stress. It also affects protein synthesis and immune function and can create a leaky gut and destroy the microbiome. So you’ve got all these mechanisms, not just one, but many mechanisms by which glyphosate destroys human health.
Stephanie Seneff:
Right. Yeah. And people say-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
It’s incredible.
Stephanie Seneff:
… “How can one chemical cause so many diseases.” I showed all those charts. Nancy Swanson was the first one who started doing those charts. I don’t know if you saw those of rise into various diseases, strongly, absolutely, practically perfectly correlated with the rise in glyphosate usage on core crops over time. I just stunning. And p-values, zero points zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, I mean, several zeros before the first significant digit of the correlations between these two chance and disease versus the rise in glyphosate usage. And people would say, well, they would say, “Correlation doesn’t necessarily mean causation.” And then they would say, “How could one chemical cause so many diseases?”
Stephanie Seneff:
And I was wondering that myself, but now I understand how, and it is this metal… it disrupts whole minerals are completely messed up. Iron, manganese, zinc, they become both toxic and deficient at the same time, because of its ability to bind to them and hold onto them and prevent the natural system from transporting them properly.
Stephanie Seneff:
And then, it’s the shikimate pathway getting racked. And that’s all these aromatic amino acids and all the derivatives that are so important for our health are getting reduced. And then, it’s actually the CYP enzymes in the liver. These have all been shown in multiple studies that it’s doing this. The CYP enzymes in the liver getting suppressed, which is cytochrome P450 enzymes, which is stage one detoxification depressed. And then this inability for the gut microbes convert inorganic sulfur into organic sulfur, which is going to give you methionine. And methionine, of course, it’s the methylation pathways, it’s the sulfation pathways. Those are all going to be disturbed because of deficiency in methionine. And instead, the sulfur gets reduced to hydrogen sulfide gas, which then causes all these other problems.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Wow. So it just jams up your biochemistry is the bottom line. It’s like throwing sand in an engine, basically, right?
Stephanie Seneff:
Right, right. Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Amazing. And there are a few of the things I want to touch on, which is a glycine. Glycine is really important amino acids-
Stephanie Seneff:
Yes, you need to touch on that.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
… and it does affect our protein synthesis. And tell us how our body has swapped out glyphosate for glycine and what that does.
Stephanie Seneff:
Yes. And that’s a central topic of my book. That’s almost the point of my book is to try to convince the audience that that’s true. Because I’ve been saying this, Anthony Samsel was the first one who suggested to me that might be happening, that is substituting for glycine during the protein synthesis. And at first I was skeptical, because it has an extra piece attached to its nitrogen atom. It is a complete glycine molecule and it does disrupt glycine in various ways, that’s known. But it also, potentially, could be substituting for glycine during the protein synthesis. And there’s no reason to stop it, it turns out, because proline is a coding amino acid that also has an attachment to its nitrogen.
Stephanie Seneff:
And it’s still able to find… there’s another linkage that the notion can hook up with the other, because the amino acids have to hook up in a chain and the nitrogen is involved in the hook. They’re like paper dolls holding hands, and the nitrogen needs to hold hands. It has something in the way, another molecule in the way, but if there’s enough room around, it can fit. So it turns out there are specific circumstances under which it will substitute. And this gets a little complicated in terms of the science, but it’s quite, quite interesting. Because the enzyme in the shikimate pathway that gets disrupted by glyphosate has a glycine residue at the site where it binds the phosphate piece of phosphoenolphyruvate, so that enzyme binds that molecule at a place where glycine is highly conserved.
Stephanie Seneff:
And if you take that glycine out and replace it with alanine, which is just an extra methyl group, a very small change, glyphosate can’t affect it at all. All of a sudden, it’s completely immune to glyphosate, once you remove that glycine. And they’ve shown that it is at that place where that glycine is that it disrupts the protein, they’ve shown that that’s the spot.
Stephanie Seneff:
And they know that if they can either remove that glycine or they can crowd it, they can put in other amino acids close by that’ll crowd the glycine, and then the glyphosate won’t fit anymore. So the argument, they say, is that glyphosate is replacing the substrate PEP. What I say is that it’s replacing the glycine, so we have a very different view of how that enzyme is getting disrupted.
Stephanie Seneff:
If you say it’s displacing the glycine, and if you say it can displace the glycine in other enzymes that have the same property, and there are many, many enzymes with very important functions that have glycine at a place that’s highly conserved that binds phosphate, even the binds PEP, the same substrate. And I suspect it’s affecting many of those enzymes. It’s that particular group of enzymes that are getting extremely disturbed by glyphosate and that have enormous roles in metabolism. And that’s how-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Yeah, so-
Stephanie Seneff:
… you’re going to get mitochondrial dysfunction, all kinds of things.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
… it screws up your immune system. It screws up your mitochondria energy. It screws up your gut, creates oxidative stress. It screws up your detox system. What doesn’t it do?
Stephanie Seneff:
I know, that’s the big question. Cancer is an interesting one and there are cancers that are going up dramatically: pancreatic cancer, thyroid cancer, liver cancer, and kidney cancer. It definitely affects a lot of the endocrine system, basically, the glands. That’s what I want, the glands.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Yeah, it’s huge. So there’s nine billion kilograms of this stuff sprayed around the world. 300 million pounds or kilograms dumped on the United States, this is a lot. We’re exposed to this in significant quantities, right? And so what is the amount that is going to cause harm? Is it-
Stephanie Seneff:
Oh, I know.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
That’s the real question, right?
Stephanie Seneff:
I think needs zero. I think we need to ban it worldwide and we need to work hard on figuring out how to get it out of the soil and out of the air and out of the water. We have a huge problem right now. We’ve got all kinds of glyphosate gathering up, because it takes it a long time to… Well, it can get broken down quickly and under optimal conditions. And of course, Monsanto says that that’s what’s always there. Two weeks later, it’s gone. That’s what they say. It is definitely not true. Experimental in many different kinds of soils, it’ll last for years. There was a study that showed that after two years, 60% of it was still there. And it stays in the ocean, if it gets deep and there’s no sunlight, sunlight helps to break it down.
Stephanie Seneff:
There are certain microbes that can metabolize it, but most microbes can’t. So it has to be specialized microbes. I think we need to do research to actually figure out which microbes can we safely put in the soil to help break it down. Because actually many of the pathogens can break it down, like the fungus. We have all kinds of problems with fungus infections in both animals and plants and fungus can break it down. So I think that’s a reason why it’s thriving.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Incredible. So the amount we need is not very much. If you were going to look at the data, is there any data on how much glyphosate is in people? And if you look at the population, have they studied, what is the body burden of glyphosate? And isn’t in amounts that are really relevant or not?
Stephanie Seneff:
Yeah, that’s a big question. Of course, it’s a question of what you think is relevant. And one thing, it has been found in people it’s been found in large amounts, and in fact, it’s been found, correlated with disease. There was a study that showed people who had fatty liver disease, which is an epidemic, and the people who had fatty liver disease. They were tested for glyphosate in their urine. And they-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Wow.
Stephanie Seneff:
… had statistically more than the ones who didn’t have the disease.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Wow.
Stephanie Seneff:
And among the ones who had it, the ones who had worse disease, had statistically significantly more than the ones who had less worse disease, this is fatty liver. And there was a study that-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
By the way, 90 million people in America are affected by that.
Stephanie Seneff:
Yeah. It’s huge. And I think glyphosate’s really dead on. And a study on rats exposed them to levels of glyphosate that were below regulatory limits, and caused fatty liver disease in those rats at those levels. The other thing that’s coming out, at least lately, which is really shocking, is extremely low levels of glyphosate causing endocrine effects that are long lasting.
Stephanie Seneff:
There are these amazing experiments coming out recently where people expose pregnant rats to glyphosate at levels that are so low, the rat doesn’t look like it has any problems. The rat is perfectly fine, the babies are born, everything’s good. The pups grow up. They have their own offspring. They grow up and you see all kinds of problems. So in other words, it’s showing up in the second and third generation.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
So in the grandchildren of the rats that got exposed, there’s the epigenetic changes that are passed through the lineage to another generations. So you’re not only dealing with what you’re exposed to you’re dealing with your grandmother was exposed to.
Stephanie Seneff:
Yes. And of course, we’re now getting second and third generation showing up, because it’s been since 1975.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Yeah. It’s pretty terrifying.
Stephanie Seneff:
It really is. I mean, I feel we have to ban this chemical worldwide right now. I mean, if we have any hope for the future. I feel like we really need to wake up and realize this is the thing that’s causing all the problems that we’re seeing. And it just shocks me that we see all this obesity. This country is just… so many problems with obesity and we just think, oh, we’re just watching too much TV and eating too much popcorn. I mean, that’s just really ridiculous to think that could be the reason why we have such tremendous inability to keep the weight off.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Yeah, well, there’s a whole science field called the study of obesogens, and obesogens are environmental chemicals that cause obesity. I’ve written a lot about this over the years. Even 15, 16 years ago I wrote about it, because I used to see it in my patients. And when you start to improve their detoxification and get rid of these chemicals from their body, they actually do better. Their metabolism improves, their weight loss comes off.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
But what you’re really saying is that most of us have levels of glyphosate in our bodies, including you and I that do impair human health.
Stephanie Seneff:
Absolutely.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
And I’m sure people listening are wondering, what the heck can I do about it? If Dr. Hyman and Stephanie, who is an MIT professor, who has made it her life’s work to study this, have high levels, what the heck am I going to do?
Stephanie Seneff:
I know it seems really hopeless. I was so depressed when I found that I… I was really shocked, actually, that I was contaminated. It wasn’t high, but it was there and it was measurable. And it’s just really depressing that you can’t avoid it, which I think is the case. If you live in America, I mean, there are places in the world where you probably can, but it’s very difficult to find a place here that without it. It is in the rain.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Well, it’s in the rain.
Stephanie Seneff:
It’s in the atmosphere.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
It’s in the water.In the atmosphere. It’s in our food.
Stephanie Seneff:
A recent study in Brazil found it in the atmosphere, founded in the nanoparticles in the air in Brazil.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Is the majority, though, from our food that we get it?
Stephanie Seneff:
I think so, but I’m not sure. I mean, that’s always been my big question. I think people who live next to fields where it’s being sprayed are in serious trouble, and they’re going to get things like chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, because they’re breathing glyphosate. But I think most of us are getting it through our food and possibly through our water. I mean, there’s a question of the water supply, and it could also be from the air. And I’m concerned about that, with respect to biofuels, because I’m really quite wondering if biofuels are introducing glyphosate into the air in cities where they’re being burned.
Stephanie Seneff:
Because they’re coming from… For example, ethanol, bioethanol is coming from GMO Roundup Ready Corn or sugarcane sprayed with glyphosate right before the harvest. So it could be in the atmosphere. I mean, it is in the atmosphere, and it could be from the air that you’re getting exposure into to the lungs. And that’s another worry that I have.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
So is there anything we can do eat, take supplements, anything that can help us reduce our glyphosate levels? Take a sauna, wheatgrass enema? What are we going to do?
Stephanie Seneff:
Yeah. I mean, I’m a big fan of sunlight, and, of course, vitamin D is so important, but I believe sunlight also. It helps you to make sulfate in the skin. And I talk about that in my book, quite fascinating science. And so sunlight exposure, I think is extremely useful for improving your immune function. Your immune function is really central to your health. Many people in America have a weak and innate immune system and that’s causing a lot of their diseases. Their diseases are actually there to help boost the immune function. They serve the immune cells to help improve their health, I believe, all these diseases like arthritis and things, gut dysbiosis, and et cetera. But-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Should we be taking, for example, sulfur producing compounds that help boost glutathione like lipoic acid and N-acetylcysteine>.
Stephanie Seneff:
Yes. Right.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
And should we be taking the methylated B vitamins to help with that sulfur and-
Stephanie Seneff:
Right, make sure you have enough of that.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
… methylation pathway?
Stephanie Seneff:
Of course, I like to just eat really, really healthy foods, certified organic, whole foods, lots of green vegetables, lots of salads-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
But is that enough though? I mean, is that enough? Because you’ve-
Stephanie Seneff:
I don’t think it’s enough.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
… been doing that already. So I’m thinking, okay, from my functional medicine perspective, how can I fix these problems? So I can [crosstalk 00:36:14]-
Stephanie Seneff:
And glycine is another one. Taking glycine, that’s one that I’ve talked to functional medicine specialists who like glycine as a supplement. [crosstalk 00:36:20]-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Yeah. I love it.
Stephanie Seneff:
… about that. Because that’s going to help to counteract the glyphosate substitution for the glycine, which is so important to try to prevent glycine-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
You can take amino acids of glycine. You can take sulfur boosting compounds like NAC, and lipoic acid, selenium, milk thistle.
Stephanie Seneff:
Epsom salt baths.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Epsom salt baths.
Stephanie Seneff:
I really like that.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Vitamin D, these are all things people can do. And plus just cut out your exposures as much as possible from food, which is-
Stephanie Seneff:
And then probiotics. Yeah. Yeah. Cut out exposure is crucial. Try everything you can to cut out exposure. And then probiotics, especially, it’s curious that there was a study on cows that found that sauerkraut juice was beneficial for cows that were… I just can’t imagine these cows eating sauerkraut. But they were sick and they had glyphosate in their urine, and they gave them several things, but sauerkraut juice was one of the things I gave them. And I don’t know how they thought to do that, but I found that quite interesting.
Stephanie Seneff:
Because I was wondering whether, and it hasn’t been proven, whether the microbes in the sauerkraut juice were able to metabolize the glyphosate. I feel like if you could get microbes growing in your gut that can metabolize glyphosate, you would be a lot better off. And so, acidobacter, there are species of acidobacter that can metabolize glyphosate. So one could hope they might be in apple cider vinegar, they mentioned foods. It’s a possibility. It hasn’t been proven, but it’s something that I find appealing, so I-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
So we need a multi-pronged approach, right?
Stephanie Seneff:
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Okay. So let’s switch gears a little bit for a minute. So we talked about the human health impacts, but let’s talk about the environmental impacts. Why is glyphosate such a threat to our environment, the wildlife, biodiversity and the microbiome of the soil? And why is that important?
Stephanie Seneff:
Right, I mean, that just goes so far doesn’t it? Because, if the soil isn’t healthy, then the plant isn’t healthy, then the food isn’t healthy, and it just cascades down. There’s so many animals that are in trouble right now. There’s such a mess with the insects and you know the bees, the bee colony collapse syndrome, the butterflies are disappearing. I believe that glyphosate is a major player in many of those problems.
Stephanie Seneff:
People have always looked elsewhere and certainly there are other chemicals that are affecting them. The insecticides are an obvious one for the bees, but lately it’s becoming clear that glyphosate is a player in the bee colony collapse syndrome. And it’s quite clear with a Monarch butterfly, because glyphosate is to kill its major source of food.
Stephanie Seneff:
The milkweed is a weed that grows in the corn crops and they use glyphosate to kill it. The butterfly depends on the milkweed as its diet. The milkweed is poisoned with glyphosate, so. So is the butterfly. Monarchs are disappearing. Insects are way down. And of course, the amphibians, they’re very sensitive to glyphosate, because they take in water through their skin and their skin is very porous. The glyphosate probably goes right in through their skin, so they’re [crosstalk 00:39:09]-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
So it affects wildlife. It affects pollinators. It affects reptiles. Biodiversity, I mean, we need pollinators for fertilizing agriculture. So a lot of ways in which it screwed things up. To me, one of the most important ways is the soil. And we’ve talked a lot about soil, the importance of the health of the soil. The organic matter in the soil determines the quality of the food we eat and the quality of our health. It’s also necessary for the sequestration of carbon in the soil, for holding water for reducing the effects of chemicals. So glyphosate seems to have a really horrible effect on soil, and-
Stephanie Seneff:
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
… the soil microbiome as well as our own microbiome. So can you talk about that and why that’s important?
Stephanie Seneff:
I can. Yes. In fact, it disrupts the ability for the plants to take up… the nitrogen fixing bacteria get disrupted, so nitrogen nitrogen is not easily taken up by the plants. And this means you have to use more nitrate fertilizers and that they stick around. And then when there’s a rainstorm, they wash out into the waterways, and actually we have a huge problem with the overgrowth of cyanobacteria because of the nutrients that are being supplied. They sort of block the sun and they use up the oxygen. So you have this hypoxic environment in the waterways that ends up producing nitrous oxide from that nitrate fertilizer it produces nitrous oxide, which is a 100 times worse than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas. So that’s getting released, so it’s messing up climate change as well.
Stephanie Seneff:
In fact, glyphosate just suppresses an enzyme, which is the most common enzyme in the world. It’s called rubisco. It’s a nice name, R-U-B-I-S-C-O, rubisco. It’s an enzyme that’s present in many plants and is essential for converting carbon dioxide into organic matter. So it’s preventing the plants from capturing the carbon dioxide in the air and putting it into the soil. And that’s, of course, a crucial way to avoid a carbon release global warming from these greenhouse gases. I suspect that glyphosate is playing a major role in the crisis we’re seeing with carbon dioxide.
Stephanie Seneff:
I don’t know if you heard, but the carbon dioxide levels on the top of this mountain in Hawaii, the highest levels ever measured happened-
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Wow.
Stephanie Seneff:
… this April, this month. Despite the fact that we’ve shut way down on the… because of the locked downs, so we have a lot less burning of fossil fuels in our vehicles and despite that, the levels keep going up. I think glyphosate is a major player in climate change, and I’m frustrated that nobody seems to be looking at that.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Because of its effect on the soil health you mean?
Stephanie Seneff:
Yeah. Capturing carbon from carbon dioxide in the air, capturing it and turning it into organic matter, putting it into the soil. This is a process that goes on in all the plants all over the planet, and when glyphosate is there, it suppresses their ability to do that.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
I mean, a lot of people listening to podcasts that have heard me talking about regenerative agriculture and the importance of soil health, and we’ve had a lot of soil experts on the podcast. And we’ve talked about the reasons for degraded soil health, tillage and lack of cover crops and lack of animal integration and lots of other things, and even nitrogen fertilizers.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
But glyphosate seems to be one of the worst actors in terms of damaging the microbiome of the soil, which is linked to our health and our microbiome. But also is critical, as you said, without the organic matter in the soil, which is really the microbes and the carbon from the plants, we can’t, one, extract nutrients from the plants well, we can’t hold carbon in the soil, we can’t hold water in the soil, and we need all these agrochemicals. So in a sense, glyphosate is the kingpin that can help-
Stephanie Seneff:
I think so.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
… unlock this. Now, I want-
Stephanie Seneff:
And it also causes the soil to erode much more easily. It erodes, so we lose the top soil, because it doesn’t have enough organic matter to hold it in place and hold water.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
That’s true. Now, Monsanto, which is now gone and has been bought by Bayer, which is the same company that makes you aspirin, by the way.
Stephanie Seneff:
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
But it’s a big agrochemical company. They seem to have bought this when it was undergoing a lot of review and lawsuits and took on a huge risk, and, yet, they seem to be okay with it. And they also have been looking like maybe they might shut down glyphosate, but they’ve come up with another compound called LibertyLink, which is another herbicide that they want to replace glyphosate with. And it’s starting to be used all over America and globally. What’s your take on that? Because it’s a new thing, maybe it’s better, maybe it’s worse, but I don’t trust it.
Stephanie Seneff:
Is that one glufosinate?
Dr. Mark Hyman::
I’m not sure the chemical name for it, you can look that up. But it’s-
Stephanie Seneff:
I’m thinking it is, but I need to do a quick Google search to see if… Glufosinate is also an amino acid analog, by the way, it’s an amino acid analog of glutamate. And I suspect it’s going to have a similar property of substituting for glutamate during protein synthesis, just as glyphosate substituting for glycine. It’s possible that it’s going to do that. All these chemicals are bad.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Yes. It’s glufosinate.
Stephanie Seneff:
There you go.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
It’s glufosinate.
Stephanie Seneff:
It’s an amino acid analog of glutamate. And, of course, glutamate is a major player in autism, because there’s excess glutamate in the brain. It causes neuro-excitotoxicity. Glufosinate’s bad news. I mean, none of these herbicides are good.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
It’s a new and better one, but it’s not good. So what do we do? We have to change our agriculture to a more regenerative system that doesn’t need all that crap. And when you look at the farmers like Gabe Brown and Allen Williams, and a lot of the regenerative farmers, they’re actually phasing out all these compounds. They’re phasing out these Roundup Ready seeds, and they’re phasing out the use of agrochemicals, and they’re seeing better yields, increased soil carbon, lower water use, and water retention in the soil is better, improving the nutritional density of the products. They’re making more money. And they’re actually drawing down and sequestering carbon as part of the cycle of regenerating soil. So I mean, why is the government not doing this? And other countries have really-
Stephanie Seneff:
I know.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
… taken a stand on this. What countries have banned it? And what do we need to do to get it banned here?
Stephanie Seneff:
Bermuda has banned since, I think, at least 2015, Bermuda has just not used… In fact, I think they care about their coral and trying to protect it. Sri Lanka and El Salvador banned it sometime ago, off and on, they kind of banned it and unbanned it, because of a kidney failure among the agricultural workers that were being exposed to glyphosate. And Mexico, is such a darling. I’m so happy to hear that Mexico just declared maybe last year, they’re going to phase glyphosate out by 2024. And they’re also going to phase out the GMO corn as well.
Stephanie Seneff:
So Europe has been trying to banned it. And that’s kind of a sad story, because I think Austria banned it, or they passed the law to ban it. And then, I think, higher ups with the European Union, basically, said, “You can’t do that,” or, “You did it wrong,” or something. So the European Union is trying to wrestle control over all those countries, so that individual countries can’t make individual decisions, which I think is really sad. So Mexico is great.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
The Environmental Working Group, I mean, sorry, the EPA has basically taken a backseat on this, and has said it’s safe and it’s not an issue. And there were emails that were discovered under the Freedom of Information Act in a lawsuit, that found that the Trump administration was emailing Bayer saying, “Don’t worry, we got your back on glyphosate.”
Stephanie Seneff:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I heard that. I know.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Like, whoa. So maybe your book will help us to call this out in a way that people can understand, and that will catalyze lawmakers and policymakers. And I personally am going to help you with my efforts in Washington to help educate lawmakers about the dangers of glyphosate, and begin to sort of, hopefully, turn the tide on this. And it really comes down to, one, supporting a different form of agriculture like regenerate agriculture. But, also, to really help with driving the regulations that have to stop the use of it in this country.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
But nine billion pounds is a hell of a lot.
Stephanie Seneff:
Yes.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Kilograms, actually, that’s more than nine billion pounds.
Stephanie Seneff:
Kilograms, yeah.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
So basically here we go, we’ve gotten a bird’s eye view. Just really touched on it in the most superficial way, really. Everybody should get the book, Toxic Legacy, which is, the subtitle is, How the Weed Killer Glyphosate is Destroying our Health and the Environment. It’s out, getting wherever you get your books, Amazon. It’s such an important book for our time. And I think, hopefully, it will be a catalyst of, one, help people change their own behavior and change policy.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
And the take homes for people listening is that, one, it disrupts so many of the body’s key systems, mitochondria and energy, your immune system, your microbiome, your hormones, your oxidative stress, your detoxification pathways. But the good news is we know a lot through our understanding of biology and functional medicine, how to help the body detoxify.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
So while you may not be able to get rid of it completely, you can reduce your exposures by eating regenerative or organic. You can make sure you are upregulating your pathways that need to be upregulated such as the glutathione pathway with lipoic acids, selenium, milk thistle, N-acetylcysteine, even glutathione sublingually, as well as the B vitamins. We know you also need things like epsom salt baths, vitamin D, and lots of other things to help.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
So I’m sure all that’s in your book, I’m super excited to get this out in the hands of everybody. And I’m so thankful you’ve done the hard work and the science behind this. And have taken this on, because you could be a target for something, because of what you’re saying. So thank you so much, Stephanie, and I’ve loved having you on the podcast. Any last thoughts or words you’d like to share about your work or where people can learn more?
Stephanie Seneff:
It’s hard to say, but I just really want to have hope for the future. And I’m so excited about the regenerative agriculture. I think we need to be positive. We need to understand that it’s not hopeless. And if we do manage to get the product banned and not adding more, and then we learn how to remove what’s there, and then we learn how to fix the soil and grow healthy food, and then be healthy and reduce our healthcare costs. I mean, there’s nothing not to like about that. We just need to get lots of people on board. We need to get the government on board to recognize that toxic chemicals have no place in our food supply.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
Well, thank you so much. And the book is now number one on the agriculture industry on Amazon. I encourage you to just definitely get it, it’s so important a book. And Stephanie keep doing the work you’re doing. Keep us educated, inspired. People can read more about your work online, lots of articles you’ve written.
Dr. Mark Hyman::
And if you’ve been listening to podcasts, we love you. Please share with your friends and family on social media, leave a comment whenever you’d like about how maybe you’ve addressed the exposures in your life. And subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And we’ll see you next week on The Doctor’s Farmacy.
Announcer:
Hi everyone. I hope you enjoyed this week’s episode. Just a reminder that this podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided on the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. If you’re looking for help in your journey, seek out a qualified medical practitioner. If you’re looking for a functional medicine practitioner, you can visit ifm.org and search their find a practitioner database. It’s important that you have someone in your corner who’s trained, who’s a licensed healthcare practitioner, and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health.
